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Author
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Topic: Military action and peace rallies
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Dutch Philosopher
Scrappy Doo
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posted September 30, 2001 12:37 PM
  
Today I attended a peace rally in Amsterdam. About 5,000-7,000 people were present. Other peace rallies were held in other cities across Europe. I was there because I thought that the Dutch political leadership has responded to the WTC attack in a far too emotional way and also because I fear that US military actions will only affect civilians and not those behind the WTC attack.So far, there has not yet been any "real" military action by the US. It has been very restrained in its reaction. Is this due to the quick reaction of peacemongers? Is this due to indecisiveness on Bush's behalf? Is the American leadership not as unreasonable as it has shown itself to be in the past year? Will military action never commence or should I keep my agenda open for the next peace rally? IP: Logged |
Roup
Self-Made User
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posted September 30, 2001 03:06 PM
I think from day one, the administration has been stating, publicly and privately, that any military response will be "surgical." Bush said, supposedly, in a meeting, "I'm not going to fire a $2 million cruise missle at a $10 tent and hit a camel in the ass." The administration has been very busy trying to build as broad a coalition as possible, including Islamic countries, and seems to actually mean what it says when it claims that an attack would be focused on bin Laden and/or the Taleban, not the Afghani populace. Whether this means Bush is "not as bad" as one thought would obviously depend on what one thought of Bush in the first place, and what one thinks of any military response at all. It would be nice to think that the "peacemongers" had an effect, but I seriously doubt that Rumsfield (secretary of defense) would say in a meeting, "Well, we were going to carpet-bomb Kabul, but there was a march in Amsterdam. That changes everything!" I think an attack will come, for good or ill. I think the best we can do is hope and pray for as few of casualties as possible, on any "side." PS - as I've stated myriad other places in WI, I'm normally a "dove," but this situation has me very, very conflicted, and I still haven't come to any resolution within my own heart or mind. ------------------
"You can't make it in 30 minutes? I find your lack of faith disturbing..." --Darth Vader ordering a pizza, according to Dutch Philosopher IP: Logged |
Y2Karen
Cereal Subunit
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posted September 30, 2001 04:49 PM
quote:
Is this due to the quick reaction of peacemongers?
I would say no. I hate to say it, but all this justice talk is going on behind closed doors, and I seriously doubt that the Bush administration is paying attention to peace rallies worldwide. I'd say that the reason there has been no military action is that Bush's defense team is working diligently to avoid retaliation from Osama bin Laden's operatives. They know that the Taliban have planned further attacks in the event that the U.S. hits Afghanistan (an eye for an eye). (The Taliban etc. may have been planning these attacks to bring down the West for 10-20 years for all we know.) The U.S. is being very, very careful*, and like Roup said, they're trying to build a worldwide coalition (and intelligence network) to go after the people responsible. At least I hope that's what they're doing. *evidence that yes, maybe this time we won't be so unreasonable IP: Logged |
Paranoid Android
Self-Made User
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posted October 01, 2001 08:48 AM
I'm pretty sure that the reason there has been no military action is that Bush's defense team is working diligently to avoid alienating the governments of friendly Islamic states; e.g. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. I really can't imagine it's due to the fear of retaliatory strikes from an enemy (Al Qaeda) that needs no excuse to strike America anyway.IP: Logged |
Fear Factory
Self-Made User
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posted October 01, 2001 08:56 AM
The aim of peace marches is not to simply to persuade the governments to not go to war - but also to voice your opinion publically, and take a stand on something you feel strongly about, so even if they don't directly affect someone, it is still nice to go.
nice? nice??? that can't be a suitable word. but i can't be assed to think of a new one.
deal with it[This message has been edited by Fear Factory (edited October 01, 2001).] IP: Logged |
Morat
Self-Made User
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posted October 01, 2001 10:14 AM
Thank Colin Powell. He's about the one voice for reason and diplomacy that gets heard in the Bush Adminstration. Rumsfield, our lovely Defense Secretary, was the one commenting about how the "nuclear option is still open". Why we'd need nukes to deal with this is beyond me. Unless, like the Onion mentioned, they have nukes that are good for "like only 6 or 7 people". If you want to keep this up, I'd suggest letting the White House know how great a job you think Powell is doing. He gets a lot of sniping from conservatives and the more hawkish members of Bush's cabinet. ------------------
Lisa! In this house we obey the Laws of Thermodynamics! --Homer Simpson IP: Logged |
Brunswik Mcbutterpants
Self-Made User
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posted October 01, 2001 12:58 PM
I say Hurray Rumsfield and support fully Military action! I am prepared to rejoin my army unit if they call me up. I love my nation.
A funny thing happened to a 23 year old blonde haired blued eyed girl -friend of mine who went to a "peace" rally and was on the opposing side. The peaceful people tried to beat her up and they jsut barely got her away from the mob. For some reason these black folk even tried to make it racial stating in what i thought was a fairly ironic sentence. "Get the f*ck out of here you racial honkey bitch" -not sure if this "peace' rally was just a weird anomoly but i sure hope so.[edit to say go USA] [This message has been edited by Brunswik Mcbutterpants (edited October 01, 2001).] IP: Logged |
farwell3d
Self-Made User
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posted October 01, 2001 04:35 PM
I hope that entire last post is a joke. Both that you support possible nuclear attacks and that something like that happened at a peace rally. ------------------
"You won't find me gone
Raised Hands Surrond Us
3 Nails to Protect Us
I'll find my way back home
Raised Hands Surround Us
3 Nails to Protect Us"
-Project 86 "Open Hand" IP: Logged |
Fieari
Self-Made User
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posted October 01, 2001 06:26 PM
I can believe that such things would happen at a "peace rally"... only because you should never underestimate stupid people in very large groups*. It may not have happened, I dunno, but I could beleive that it could happen.Nuclear war would be stupid. I think I'd support military action as far as it seems to be going, ie, kill those responcible, and make sure that no nation out there is going to attempt to harbor and protect those responcible as well. That doesn't mean nuclear weapons need to be brought in for any reason. *I just want to make clear that I am in no manner making a direct connection between those who want peace and stupidity. Only that there are just as many stupid people vying for peace as there are stupid people screaming for nukes. There's stupid people on both sides. Hey, for a few moments here and there, I've been one of 'em! Of course, I'm not in a large group, and I didn't have mob psychology egging me onwards to greater heights (depths?) of stupidity, so I could step back and have a few thinks on the matter, but... IP: Logged |
farwell3d
Self-Made User
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posted October 01, 2001 06:56 PM
Like I said, I hope it's a joke. Because I hate to think that a peace rally would do that. I didn't say I think it's a joke.IP: Logged |
Angel Fish
Self-Made User
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posted October 02, 2001 01:34 AM
It's not difficult to believe it happened - look at the vehemence expressed in this forum, by otherwise rational, amiable people, over the past three weeks. When humans get scared, they do strange things.then again, I don't understand why anyone would go to a peace march if they didn't belive in the principles of the march in the first place - and I'm referring to the girl to whom this "funny thing" happened, as opposed to her alleged attackers IP: Logged |
Jesse Dangerously
Self-Made User
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posted October 02, 2001 07:35 AM
Wanting some semblance of global peace is not the same as not bringing the ruckus to someone who antagonizes you... especially in a worked-up mob.IP: Logged |
Brunswik Mcbutterpants
Self-Made User
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posted October 02, 2001 07:43 AM
farwell3d you misunderstand me on two counts
1. I support The Secretary of Defense and the rest of my Government, I do not support the use of Nuclear weapons, I really don't see a scenario where nukes would be used -i mean come on what are we going to nuke some tents and camels -impossible! I think that statement was more of a side stream comment for other Arab nations who i am not sure but believe would not be opposed to using nukes and biological weapons if it supported their cause.
2. I said that this DID happen at a peace rally and that i hope in was NOT happening anywhere else.
I completley support military action against terrorism. I want you to understand these people, they do not think like you or I they do not have that benefit. I am speaking of those ruled by the Taliban -probably usually a peaceful people. The Regime they reside under are bad people -not bad because of their beliefs -not all the way anyhow, but the extreme -ness of their beliefs and the twisted way they have welded it to their hate. Now i don't even mind that so much but when you act on this with EXTREME VIOLENCE and loss of life then i get a bit angry. This was not a plan that was constructed a year ago or two this plan to destroy the WTC had been Bin laden's dream for most of his adult life. I am not disagreeing with anyone that US policy in the middle east is not the best -but do any of you armchair presidents have a better plan to end the fighting that has been going on since the Crusades? SO here we are they took the action to destroy thousands of innocent people from America,Austalia,New Zealand, Germany, Japan and others and to say that "thats what you get when you mess in foreign policy" I compare that to someone saying "that girl needs to get raped for wearing a skirt" It's just ridiculous. Will America sit back and just forget about the World Trade Center on Sept 11 I will not, not ever. The Taliban thinks so as does alot of the rest of the world. I hope something is done. But we shall seeIP: Logged |
Dutch Philosopher
Scrappy Doo
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posted October 02, 2001 09:18 AM
Peace rallies usually do not involve a "worked up mob". They're a bit more solemn than, say, an anti-globalisation rally, just as a classical concert is different from a rock concert.Not that it couldn't have happened, but it seems rather strange. The question I'm trying to work out: What does the US leadership really want? Are they going to wage war, why then is this taking so long? Are they just taking strong measures to prevent terrorism and arrest Bin Laden, why are they still using their War Rhetoric? When Bush, the US military and the Dutch Prime-Minister say this is a "different kind of war", they damn well try and 'splain what it's all about, 'cos I ain't gettin' it! All I see now is a demonisation of Arabs/Muslims and tough talk (& actions)about restricting civil liberties in the name of "Security". [/rant] IP: Logged |
farwell3d
Self-Made User
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posted October 02, 2001 09:26 AM
I apolgize for the misinterpreting of the first line. I find it very sad that such a thing happened anywhere, especially a peace rally on the case of the second line. I feel even worse that you just in effect said that the Palenstinians have a right to kill all Americans because of what our goverment has done to them.Of course something should be done, but I don't think cold blooded murder of the Afghani people is the right something. ------------------
"You won't find me gone
Raised Hands Surrond Us
3 Nails to Protect Us
I'll find my way back home
Raised Hands Surround Us
3 Nails to Protect Us"
-Project 86 "Open Hand" IP: Logged |
Brunswik Mcbutterpants
Self-Made User
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posted October 02, 2001 09:42 AM
Ok i accept your apology on the misinterpetation. And I am sure most peace rallies are for Peace this was probably a strange phenomenum. However i did not mean the Palestinians have free reighn to kill Americans. I'm not sure how you got that out of my post -they may feel that way.
I hope it does not come down to Innocents dying but it is looking like it is going that way. Once again we must fall back on this people's principles they feel that just having us in Arabia makes us Infidels that must be killed and the more extremist believe that ALL Americans everywhere are devils on earth and must be exterminated. They have been taught this since that were quite young. These people teach their young children that it is Ok to die bombing someone as long as you kill some other people as well. How do you make peace with that? The US Government is waging a surgical war -they are trying to not start a large campaign because admittedly the Middle East is a house of cards. They want to wage war on Terrorism that is the "New" war which requires new tactics. Lots of sneaky behind the scenes things that you wont even know about. The Carriers and ships are there for support of these Special forces. If you hear anything about it then they are compromised and failed. IP: Logged |
Dutch Philosopher
Scrappy Doo
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posted October 02, 2001 11:22 AM
quote:
Lots of sneaky behind the scenes things that you wont even know about.
- Agent Orange was a sneaky behind the scenes thing that we didn't know about.
- Iran-contra was a sneaky thing we didn't know about.
- Bay of Pigs invasion was a sneaky thing we didn't know about.
- Supplying arms to the Mujaheddeen was a sneaky thing we didn't know about. This does not necessarily mean that sneaky things are bad, but do consider them, before fully endorsing military action that does sneaky things. Problem is, the inherent nature of sneaky things makes it hard to know whether your military is doing good sneaky things (sending in teams that arrest Bin Laden) or bad sneaky things (accidently/intently killing civilians). It boils down to: How much do you trust your military, if they don't have to take public responsibility? [edited for sneakiness] [This message has been edited by Dutch Philosopher (edited October 02, 2001).] IP: Logged |
Brunswik Mcbutterpants
Self-Made User
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posted October 02, 2001 11:40 AM
I agree with that
*Sneaks off*IP: Logged | |
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