posted September 24, 2001 07:27 PM         

They also had a military expert on Fox who said that there is absolutely no question within the intelligence community that we will eventually be hit with a suitcase nuke. The question is where and when. I guess there are 70 unaccounted warheads floating around the world right now. Enough to erase New York and Washington DC off the map.

There has also been talk of crop dusting planes and biological agents.

posted September 24, 2001 08:07 PM            

Pacifism provides an important appendage for creating peace in these times of great unrest, its called diplomacy. We do need to sit around with ‘peace pipes’ turning our enemies into friends or we will be at war for eternity and even the great US of A can’t sustain that kind of offensive.

The only limitation is that I believe it is required in tandem with military action, not as a stand-alone tactic. But it is a valuable tactic nevertheless and should not be degraded as being a cowardly stance or not fighting for self-preservation.

As for fighting for self-preservation, if you somehow concluded that military action alone will ‘solve’ this problem for the western world, you are being naive. War against the Taliban, Iraq, Libya, and various other groups spread throughout the world is a war that is unwinable when military/police action is the only ‘string to your bow’.

posted September 24, 2001 09:18 PM            

IP: Logged

posted September 25, 2001 12:38 AM            

To be scared of pacifists! Are you also scared by little white lambs? Are you scared by the dark? To follow your line of reasoning: Those two things are also not doing ANYTHING to stop the threat of terrorism to the US.

Of the grounded jets 12 of them had Middle Easterners in the jump seat. How many of all flights had visiting pilots in the jump seat, I wonder? It just proves that it is ridiculous to be scared by an ethnic minority. Here we have 12 beautiful examples of perfectly friendly, normal, well-adjusted citizens. Yeah, that's a scary thought, 12 well-adjusted individuals CAN be found in the US.

About nukes being lost. That IS a scary prospect, but it's nothing the pacifists can do anything about.

I don't completely agree with the "turn enemies into friends"-stance. People will always have friends and enemies, the point is that the REAL enemies must be taken care of, while innocent civilians in Afghanistan stay unharmed.

ed. for pacifism

posted September 25, 2001 09:58 AM            

He wants dead women and children, because he knows for every death more terrorists will spring up.

Sure, we can bomb Afghanistan back into the Stone Age (not a hard chore..they're already there). ANd what will it accomplish? Thousands and thousands of new enemies of the United States, bound and determined to hurt us for our outrageous acts.

The death of innocent civilians helps Bin Laden. It will swell the ranks of his organization, grant him new suicide bombers whose only motivation is revenge against the US.

I'd prefer solutions that actually fix the problem, not make it worse. But then, I've been a proponent of the "Kojak/Hague" solution since the beginning.

It's amusing that I, the soft on crime liberal, am advocating police force and attention to international law, while Brad the "law and order" conservative is advocating the slaughter of innocents in the name of vigilante justice.

Think about it, Brad..what's the moral difference here? Bin Laden kills thousands of civilians, and in response we kill thousands of civilians whose only crime was being born into a pest-hole of a country run by ruthless Fundamentalists who decided to shelter this guy?

How would you like it if the British dropped a few bombs on your neighborhood because the US sheltered Van Braun after WWII? V2 rockets killed a lot of civilians, you know...

------------------
Lisa! In this house we obey the Laws of Thermodynamics!

posted September 26, 2001 07:27 AM            

How do I know? Because the only war heads pacifists have come in a tiny plastic bag, costs 59 cents, and tastes like sour cherry.

posted September 26, 2001 07:55 AM            

Why Pacifists Scare Me: We Could Learn a Thing or Two from Mussolini

Why Scientists Scare Me: Genetics Research Could Interfere with My Procreating

Why Liberals Scare Me: Socialist Girls Won't Screw Republicans

Why Fluffy Bunnies Scare Me: The Teeth! Look at the Teeth!

------------------
"I have a very inventive mind when it comes to torture."

posted September 26, 2001 08:10 AM            

Don't believe. Go watch Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Then tell me that bunny rabbits aren't scary.

posted September 26, 2001 08:20 AM         

IP: Logged

posted September 26, 2001 10:29 AM            

Except for "BRAAAD... IT'S THE BOOGIE PACIFIST COME TO EEEEEAAATT YOOOOOUUUU!!!!"

Brad, if everyone in the world didn't want to kill each other, why would people have invented nuclear bombs in the first place?

And, actually, reading your first post again, wouldn't a better title for this, and indeed all the threads you write, be "Why uninformed, kneejerk rumours spread by the right wing kneejerk media scare me..."

------------------
Ack, bec's geometry homework wants to sell me a Tiny Wireless Camera! - Cropherb, via IRC

posted September 26, 2001 12:27 PM            

quote:

---

In the face of this threat, pacifists would have us sit around smoking peace pipes while waiting for the next terror attack.

---

But Brad, why does that scare you?
It's not like they're going to do anything to force you to sit around smoking peace pipes. They can't. They're pacifists. That means they don't believe in the use of force.

And that means that no matter how strongly they disagree with those of us who believe in the possibility of constructive violence in a good cause, the most they'll do to stop us is to try to talk us out of it.

This is scary?

Brad, I also put it to you that your position here may be weakened by your prior statements about being scared of airbags. You have to admit that you come across as being pretty easily and irrationally scared.

------------------
-=> Toon

posted September 26, 2001 06:09 PM            

quote:

---

Of all the jets that were grounded after the carnage started, 12 of them had middle easterners (claiming to be visiting pilots) sitting in the jump seat. Can you imagine the devastation that would have laid upon our country if it turns out that these "visiting pilots" were indeed terrorists?

---

posted September 26, 2001 06:10 PM            

quote:

---

But that would have been, well, logical.

---

I reiterate: one should not watch Star Trek and read Brad Rules posts simultaneoulsly. One finds oneself quoting those more logical than oneself.

------------------
Revenge is a dish best served at room temperature with a side of onion rings.

posted September 27, 2001 10:47 AM         

Here is a more coherent explanation of why pacificists scare me.

posted September 27, 2001 12:05 PM            

Are you calm? Right, then listen up.

Right now, in America, the Islamic Terrorists have created an atmosphere whereby people are so wounded that, given an Arabic scapegoat, they are more than willing to blame all the evils in the world on that scapegoat and call down hideous torture on it. You yourself, while denouncing a regime which mistreats people because of sexuality, are advocating mistreating people because of their skin colour.

The Versailles Treaty created an atmosphere in Germany of sickening poverty. In that instance, people were left wondering what on Earth they could do, who had done this to them, to their children? Why should they starve because of the sins of their leaders? In this fertile soil, the seeds for National Socialism were sown.

Am I blaming anyone for Hitler's Nazi regime apart from those who preyed upon this situation and used it for their own ends? Of course not. But if there is nothing to blame people for, people don't get scapegoated and villified by the public. In 1940, it was impossible to stop Hitler by diplomatic means. In 1918, it could have been nipped in the bud.

Pacifists do not attempt to justify terrorists reasons for the attack. What we do is try and find out why it happened so we can stop it happening again. Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it, Brad. If the west extends a war of violence against terrorists, they are going to fight back. And what are they going to use, Brad....?

------------------
Ack, bec's geometry homework wants to sell me a Tiny Wireless Camera! - Cropherb, via IRC

posted September 27, 2001 12:36 PM            

Pacifist don't think any murderous attack is right. Are their reasons why it happened? Of course. But a true pacifist does not see any violence is good. I'm not just a pacifist in this situation because "America deserved it." I am a pacifist, period.

posted September 27, 2001 12:38 PM            

I mean, the entire world realizes that the treatment of Germany after WWI was a monsterous mistake that directly sowed the seeds for WWII.

For the love of Pete, look how we treated Japan and Germany after WWII. We helped them rebuild. We didn't punish them. And what did we get? Peace in Europe for the first time in thousands of years, and an economic powerhouse and strong ally in Japan.

I know which outcome I'd prefer.

------------------
Lisa! In this house we obey the Laws of Thermodynamics!

posted September 27, 2001 02:16 PM            

Amen.

posted September 27, 2001 09:17 PM            

------------------
Ack, bec's geometry homework wants to sell me a Tiny Wireless Camera! - Cropherb, via IRC