posted September 20, 2001 10:19 AM            

To the point of view of your average person, it's certainly considered "braver" to go up against your enemy face-to-face, so to speak. A fair fight, rather thank kill your enemy from a long way away...especially if he has no idea you're coming.

Cruise missles can thus be seen as a cowardly way to fight. So can hijacked airplanes (although at least the hijackers had to die too).

Personally? I don't buy it. If it was a sneak attack, yes, it's cowardly. But someone we're at war with and who has been warned? Nope. It's pragmatic.

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Lisa! In this house we obey the Laws of Thermodynamics!

posted September 20, 2001 11:43 AM            

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Lisa! In this house we obey the Laws of Thermodynamics!

posted September 20, 2001 01:04 PM            

I saw Politically Incorrect on Monday night. And I watched it again Tuesday and Wednesday night (it comes on right after I get home from work). I heard Bill Maher's comments, and in the context in which they were spoken, they made a great deal of sense. He was responding to another panelist's comment that these terrorists were not cowards, that it takes a lot of guts to hijack a plane and crash it into a building — all for your beliefs that Western civilization should be brought to its knees. (I agree — about the coward part.)

Maher then said that in the past (namely, the time the military went after Osama in 1998 and blew up a pharmaceutical factory in Kabul) OUR MILITARY has been the coward, refusing to send in *people* to take out this asshole. And again, I agree. If we hadn't stopped with the weak attempt on the asshole's life then, we quite possibly wouldn't have been attacked in the way we were Sept. 11.

On Wednesday night, Maher explained himself to all the people (like Brad) who just don't get it. All that these angry people took from what Maher said was "the military is cowardly." Then a big discussion of this country's unique right to dissent (where else can you TRULY get away with calling your leader an idiot?) got started, and the issue was laid to rest, even propped up a bit by the guests, who of course jumped to the defense of free speech.

Bill Maher is stupid? You obviously are unfamiliar with his show.

posted September 20, 2001 02:06 PM            

Then again (given how little TV I watch anymore) if the ABC version is at least an hour long, that might make up for it. When it was on Comedy Central, it was always just getting good when they had to close.

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Lore> I want to go to the Jehovah's Witness paradise, 'cause you get to pet baby pandas.

babybabble

posted September 21, 2001 01:57 AM            

Has our country gone mad? We used to make good, salient points about the military all the time, and no one cared about it then. My Father is IN the military and HE makes interesting points about the military all the time. They are, by no means, the best, most brave group of people on the planet just because they are protecting our country. I've met people in the military who I DON'T trust with a gun at all.

Anyway, the point being that he's right. In a very real sense, the entirety of Europe views the USA as the cowards. Instead of sending people in all the time, we send jets with bombs if we can get away with it. While in a sense, we can say that these jet hijackers were cowards because they didn't show their face, they are braver than most of us. I mean they were obviously committing suicide for something they believe in.

I believe in my freedom, and I believe in this country. I believe in both these thigns VERY strongly, but I can't even say I'M brave enough to want to die for what I believe in. If we bring religion into it, there's another question. Would you die for Christianity/Islam/Judaism/Buddhism/Insert your religion or lack thereof here? I love the Goddess to pieces but I can't say what I'd do in a situation like that until I was in it. (And hopefully my religion would never ask me to kill a bunch of innocent people at all).

Now I'm not trying to say these terrorists are heroes. They aren't. They were a bunch of crazy sick-os. But what I am saying is that just because everyone's all up-in-arms now doesn't mean that freedom of speech has somehow escaped us. We need to lighten up a bit and THINK about why we're reacting to things and what's ACTUALLY being said before we just react.

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Of course, it all comes crashing down in sulfur and brimstone if you fuck just one sheep. - Spanielmander

posted September 21, 2001 01:59 AM            

*Old Irish phrase. Means something along the lines of "You didn't think this was going to be a picnic, did you?"

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Of course, it all comes crashing down in sulfur and brimstone if you fuck just one sheep. - Spanielmander

posted September 21, 2001 11:55 AM            

If you can make a good case that we picked a fight, so to speak, then there's a massive point there.

But it's no more inherently cowardly to drop bombs than it is for SWAT teams to toss flash-bangs in the door.

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Lisa! In this house we obey the Laws of Thermodynamics!

posted September 21, 2001 02:08 PM            

quote:

---

But it's no more inherently cowardly to drop bombs than it is for SWAT teams to toss flash-bangs in the door.

---

...or to pick off your opponents with arrows from a bow, or slings from a stone, rather than getting close enough for them to hit you with their swords.

...or to attack from higher ground or concealed terrain, rather than fighting on a level plain where everybody can see and reach everybody else.

...or just about any other technological or tactical innovation that's ever been made since the first time a human skull was crushed by an antelope bone in the hand of another human.

The way I see it, the only truly cowardly tactic in a war is to attack noncombatant/s in an attempt to force combatant/s to give in without a fight.
Anything else is just sensible strategy.Unless there's some other tactic that I'm overlooking. Anyone care to suggest one?

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-=> Toon

posted September 22, 2001 11:58 AM            

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Revenge is a dish best served at room temperature with a side of onion rings.

posted September 23, 2001 06:12 PM            

quote:

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Bill Maher = open-minded Libertarian
Jerry Falwell = fascist whose mind is clogged by hate

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I dunno. I guess that this just came across as possibly you associating open minded with libertarian and closed minded with fascist, wheras the two are separate concepts...you can be a closed minded libertarian or an open minded fascist. But, that wasn't really your point anyway, I see while looking back. I just read it too quickly.

quote:

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The way I see it, the only truly cowardly tactic in a war is to attack noncombatant/s in an attempt to force combatant/s to give in without a fight.

---

Technically, it's all just tactics, isn't it? You want to win with as much of your strength left as possible, so that once you have won, you can enforce your victory. Why is the judgement of values skewed so that if 200 men who have been press ganged into the army, or who are fighting a war to avenge the death of their son, last seen having his head stoved in with the butt of somebody's rifle, are killed by a cruise missile, this is a good thing?
Ashkara>

quote:

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Would you die for Christianity/Islam/Judaism/Buddhism/Insert your religion or lack thereof here?

---

However, there is a BIIIG difference between dying for one's religion and killing for it. Some people can kill for their religion. I'm not saying that they necessarily corrupt God, but I am saying that God reveals a part of Himself to them that I don't know, or else reveals some truth to them that I don't know. To kill is to judge someone's right to live or die, and I am incapable of making such a judgement.

quote:

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Now I'm not trying to say these terrorists are heroes. They aren't. They were a bunch of crazy sick-os.

---

You said above that you know people in military service who you wouldn't trust with a gun. Well, so do I. I know squaddies who spend their whole lives drunk. A good number of squaddies in England end up homeless because their training taught them how to kill and polish boots, but not how to talk to people or survive in the real world. And yet, these are people who are effectively entrusted with the sharp and pointy end of military service. For some reason, someone who thinks the height of humourous entertainment is a lighted fart, is handed a gun and told to save the world. Their not incredibly patriotic, either. People join the army because it pays well, and because they'll put you through university if you show the nous. They don't join the army because they believe it is noble to fight and die for their country.

Both sides of any battle consist of two main components. Number one is a powerful, intelligent leader, or group of leaders. You can tell they are intelligent, because they aren't at the front. The second component is made up of unfortunate, drunken, possibly (although not always) stupid, scared, angry individuals, who are going to DIE because the leaders tell them to.

There is an ancient greek word, aretê. It means excellence, quality, nobility. It is the level of good to which all men aspire, and by which all men are judged. A man who displayed aretê would lead an army into battle, not send them. His mighty deeds on the battle field would be told about in stories and songs. True, he might die. But that is what made him worthy to lead the army into battle. His internal strength that was willing to say "I give my life as well as yours." What is cowardly is sending someone else to fight your battles for you. If your tactics are so sound, if the loss of life will be necessary, why don't YOU go and lead that army into battle. The leaders of a modern army, even in defeat, remain alive.

I disagree slightly with Jesse. I don't think that killing your enemies is necessarily cowardly. I think that not looking them in the eye while you do so is.

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Ack, bec's geometry homework wants to sell me a Tiny Wireless Camera! - Cropherb, via IRC

posted September 23, 2001 09:46 PM            

America took that lesson to heart, after Vietnam. We don't want to see our soldiers die. Most of us don't really want to see the enemy die. We just want them to stop whatever it is we don't like. *shrug*. Cowardice, prudence, good tactics. Whatever. War is hell, and civilized distinctions are the first to go.

The problem with wars like this is there is no clear enemy. No nation to hate. And the casualties aren't soldiers.

I don't consider what happened at the WTC to be an Act of War. I consider it a criminal act of monsterous proportions, and those responsible should be hunted down and punished to the full extent of international law. (As the victims were citizens of many countries).

It only becomes an Act of War if another country provided aid for this act. There's been some rumblings that Hussien's intelligence service was heavily involved. That would be an act of war.

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Lisa! In this house we obey the Laws of Thermodynamics!

posted September 24, 2001 02:07 PM            

Bodies fill the fields I see,
Hungry heroes end
No one to play soldier now,
No one to pretend.
Running blind through killing fields,
Bred to kill them all
A victime of what should be
A servant 'til I fade

Soldier boy, made of clay
Now an empty shell
Twenty-one, only son
But he served us well
Bred to kill, not to care
Do just as we say
Finished here, greeting death
He's yours to take away

Back to the front
You will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front
You will die, when I say, you must die
Back to the front
You coward you servant you blindman

Barking of Machine gun fire
Does nothing to me now
Sounding of the clock that ticks,
Get used to it somehow
More a man, more stripes you bare
Glory seeker trends
Bodies fill the fields I see
The Slaughter never ends

Solider boy, made of clay
Now an empty shell
Twenty one, only son
But he served us well
Bred to kill, not to care
Do just as we say
Finished here, greetings death
He's your to take away

Back to the front
You will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front
You will die, when I say you must die
Back to the front
You coward, you servant, you blind man

Why, am I dying
Kill, have no fear
Lie, live off lying
Hell, Hell is here

I was born for dying

Life planned out before my birth,
Nothing could I say
Had no chance to see myself
Moulded day by day
Looking back I realize,
Nothing have I done
Left to die with only friend
Alone I clench my gun

Solider boy, made of clay
Now an empty shell
Twenty one, only son
But he served us well
Bred to kill, not to care
Do just as we say
Finished here, greetings death
He's yours to take away

Back to the front
You will do what I say, when I say
Back to the front
You will die, when I say you must die
Back to the front
You coward, you servant, you blindman